CIA The World Factbook

YI: You spoke about discrimination against people afflicted with AIDS, what is being done to eradicate this stigma that is attached to HIV/AIDS victims?

Nafsiah Mboi : Actually, it is not only stigma against people living with HIV. That has decreased a lot now since people understand what is HIV, and how it spreads. My concern at the moment is stigma and discrimination against the people who are vulnerable. For instance, if injecting drug users are considered as criminals, the stigma of being a criminal prevents them from getting access to services. The same goes to men having sex with men, or trans-genders. They are stigmatized and marginalized. That is why, what we are doing now, is supporting them so they can form networks. We now have networks of people living with HIV, injecting drug users, men having sex with men, as well as cross-genders. It's not easy. Organizing sex workers is not easy. Yet, one of the ways to get them empowered is through forming these networks, these organizations and we support them so they can take care of their own members.

YI: What is being done to change the attitudes of some leaders in society who are against this, who have different viewpoints from you?

Nafsiah Mboi : A lot. Whether they want to listen or not, we tell them that these are our people who have the right to live, the right to health services, to economic opportunities and that stigma and discrimination is against the law. We have the Human Rights Law, but it is the belief of the community that is very hard to change. We just have to live with it, I mean, we try to change that. Some do change.

YI: What do you say to some religious leaders who say that this is against their religion?

Nafsiah Mboi : We tell them, to refer as examples to condoms. We have demonstrations and discussions with people who don't like us, not only the religious leaders, but also some groups in the community. We tell them: our national strategy stipulates that the first approach is religion. And so only to those who do not engage in religion who are at high risk sex, those are the people we target the condom promotion. If they are already in church or they do whatever their religion tells them to do, they don't need condoms.

YI: They are less likely to be vulnerable.

Nafsiah Mboi : They don't need condoms and they don't promote (the use) of condoms among themselves. Why should they? But for those who are at risk, the young people who don't know, what they're doing put them at risk. Or those people who engage in high-risk sex. We do have the data and evidence, and it involves millions of people. They have the right to the information and we have the obligation to provide this information and the services to them.

YI: You have been quoted as saying 'we need more women leaders in the fight against HIV/AIDS.'

Nafsiah Mboi : My friend, we need women leaders in all aspects of our lives. Yes, indeed, because my experience in the past, for many many years, is that if a woman leader is convinced of a cause, she will do a lot of things and she can make things work. I am not saying that the men do not, but I have seen women work, from the highest level to even the most illiterate women. Women leaders, once they are convinced of a cause, can move the earth to be able to achieve their aim. And I have many years of experience in that.

YI: So your hope lies in women?

Nafsiah Mboi : Both in men and women. I am a gender person. I know that both men and women have to share this planet. We cannot live alone, women cannot live without men and neither can men live without us.

YI: Not too long ago, there was news about implanting microchips in HIV/AIDS patients which was sharply criticized. What is the status of that proposal?

Nafsiah Mboi : Well, there has never been a plan to do that. This was one crazy idea of one local legislator who proposed that in a draft of a local regulation. Of course, we immediately said no and it was rejected, and finished. But for the press, this was very hot news, so everyone acted as if it was already approved. No, not at all. It was taken out of the draft.

YI: So it went nowhere, it was just a crazy idea? It's against human rights.

Nafsiah Mboi : Yes, but also, it cannot be implemented. Can you imagine? First of all, the technology does not exist. That person may have seen too many movies. If you implant chips, they must be monitored. Who's going to do it? And how can you differentiate this man dancing from having sex? And what do you if someone in Wamena, in the mountains, has this chip? How do you know what he is doing? It's for the birds, it's nonsense.

YI: We have spoken about HIV/AIDS in Indonesia. However, the borders are becoming more and more open, we are seeing a lot of trans-border traffic in all fields. So, I can see the problem spreading. Is anything being done collectively among ASEAN countries to manage this problem?

Nafsiah Mboi : Not concretely, because the last report of the AIDS Commission in Asia has provided a very clear warning that if we don't do anything, if we don't prevent his disaster now, we will be sorry. The report is very comprehensive of Asian countries, showing some countries already have the epidemic, already changed the course, which is really going down like this, like Thailand, etc. Then, most of our countries is still doing this, like Indonesia. Then we still have those which are at the moment, low-risk but potentially they can increase because traffic among countries is open. There has been talk about having multi-country programs. For instance, last year we tried to have an ASEAN program for migrant workers, from Indonesia to Singapore, to Japan, etc. But it didn't fly. We failed. We have not been able to access resources. Our proposal was rejected by the Global Fund and I have not seen another proposal for this multi-country project. We do have now a local program between our side of Papua - West Papua - and PNG. That is starting off. We invited four colleagues from PNG to come to Jayapura to discuss this problem. Indeed, the epidemic in PNG and West Papua are very similar. So, the commitment was to collaborate to prevent the spread of HIV because of people going back and forth across the border. So that is one. We are now hoping that in Batam, Singapore and Malaysia, there will be more action there, but it hasn't taken off the ground yet.

YI: That will be your next challenge.

Nafsiah Mboi : Yes, but infections among Indonesians...Why Indonesians? Because it's big enough of a problem. It's already a big challenge. We still have to do that.

YI: On that note, Ibu Nafsiah, thank you for your very interesting and informative presentation.

Nafsiah Mboi : My pleasure.