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YI: Is it the number of population that determines the seriousness or is it the level of development, because we hardly hear of cases, for instance, in Sumatra?

Nafsiah Mboi : We do. Most probably, it is because Papua has always been such a focus of attention of the international world. But actually, in North Sumatra, it is very serious, also in KEPRI or Riau, and also in Java, basically all of Java and Bali, and South Sulawesi. We started with saying there were six priority provinces because they are serious, but then, actually we had to increase the number to 19 and as of 2008, I focused my attention basically to all provinces, which now stands at 33. This is because we don't want to wait until it is very serious. We want to prevent as much as possible now, not five years from now. And that is why, the indicator of the level of seriousness - hundreds of thousands being infected - is not that relevant for us. But we are looking at our people who are most at risk. We have done the estimation, we have done the mapping and we know that the highest prevalence is among injecting drug users. In some areas, they are over 50 percent. In West Java, for instance, 70 percent of new cases are among injecting drug users. So that's how we target our prevention programs, to where the most at risk people are: the injecting drug users, people engaged in commercial sex - sex workers - as well as their clients, and that's a huge number, men who have sex with men, and trans-genders. And of course, one of the recent developments, is the problem in prisons because of the criminalization of injecting drug users. Over the last few years, the number of injecting drug users have increased and because they are in prison, we have the data. We see a lot of prisoners infected with HIV and injecting drugs in prisons. They usually talk about the twin epidemics in Indonesia. That is one of the reasons why we take it so seriously, because it's actually a multiple epidemic in Indonesia.

YI: That is a controlled situation. A prison situation should be easier to monitor and to manage, isn't it?

Nafsiah Mboi : The prison situation yes, but we don't have enough resources. The resources for prison programs increased in 2006 and 2007 and we hope to increase it more with the approval of the Global Fund for AIDS. We hope that as of this year, we will be able to accelerate prevention programs as well as care, support and treatment in 82 prisons. But that is not enough. Indonesia is too big, too many people.

YI: One recent study indicated that migrant workers are most vulnerable to HIV/AIDS. Why is that?

Nafsiah Mboi : I wouldn't say most vulnerable, especially if talk about the 3 Ms - mobile men with money. This is because they tend to engage in high-risk sexual behavior.

YI: So we are talking about male workers?

Nafsiah Mboi : Male migrant workers. While most female migrant workers go from one area to the other, they are mostly domestic migrant workers, who also go international. The domestic migrant workers -- we are talking about women. The men we understand, right? They are what we call the high-risk people - mobile men with money and they tend to engage in high-risk sex. But a large percentage of women workers - about 10 percent, I think - are actually workers who are trafficked. And we have now studies showing that they are being trafficked for sex work. And because they have no protection, they are indeed most vulnerable, very vulnerable to infections through their sex work. Unprotected sex abroad, as well as here actually. For instance, we have women going from East Surabaya going to Batam, and then from there going to the Riau Islands, to Natuna. I just received reports from there that these women have been brought there and trafficked into doing sex work. It's daunting. It really needs the whole society to be able to manage it. So, no, I would not say it's easy to manage. We know what to do but the challenges are huge.

YI: So, as secretary of the National Aids Commission, the Commission developed a national strategic plan, which spans from 2007 to 2010. What are the salient points of this strategic plan and how will it affect all this problem?

Nafsiah Mboi : In 2006, the government decided to intensify and accelerate the prevention and treatment program. So there was a new presidential regulation which established the National Aids Commission in a new way, which is that we are now accountable to the President himself. Indeed, in order to be able to increase or accelerate the program to achieve universal access by 2010, we needed to have a strategy and an action plan. Besides the strategy, we also have a national action plan which has now been adopted by all 33 provinces and about 150 districts, which is to prioritize prevention. Epidemicologically, we know that to be able to change the course of the epidemic, we have to reach at least 80 percent of all those people most at risk with effective prevention programs, comprehensive programs. And 60 percent must change their behavior. We and the national government made the commitment that all people even with HIV/AIDS who fulfill the requirements, have access to anti-retroviral treatment for free. But besides that, I always say there are three things we have to have the coverage, which is not easy, we need to have the effectiveness of the program, which is also not easy - given that sexual transmission in Indonesia is so wow! But also the sustainability of the program. At the moment we are still dependent on outside funding. Our latest data shows that 70 percent of the funding comes from outside of Indonesia, and that is not good for sustainability. So my requirement at the moment, as secretary of the National Aids Commission, is to change the course of the epidemic, perhaps to have the coverage, the effectiveness of the program or the quality of the programs and the sustainability, so we will be able to do it without or with limited help of funding from outside.

YI: In your opinion, is the government doing enough in this score? And what are you doing to get the private sector involved? Because, after all, a lot of their employees, thousands of them, are at risk.

Nafsiah Mboi : What is enough? The government's task is to provide leadership, provide the policy environment, the regulations. In that case, basically yes, not enough, although much has been achieved since 2006. It's the implementation that is very important. And in terms of implementation, I must say there has been a little bit of progress. But we still need more resources to be able to cover this country, which is so huge. We are the only archipelago, and it is more difficult. But we do have a good strategy, a good action plan. We have mobilized three sources (of funding). It's not yet enough but we are helped by the Global Fund, the Partnership and also from local resources.

YI: From the private sector?

Nafsiah Mboi : Also from the private sector. There is the Indonesian Business Coalition Against AIDS. Especially to the big companies I say, 'you don't have to give me money but make sure that none of your employees are infected (by) prevention programs and secondly, that those who are infected do not get discriminated against, so they can stay employed and work and get access to the support and treatment they need.' So, yes, we are moving towards that goal. At the moment my policy is that the private sector should take care of their employees first because that's where the danger lies. If the productive-age population is infected they will be sorry. And businesses will be sorry.