CIA The World Factbook

YI: In fact, people are saying that Islam in Indonesia is becoming more conservative. There seems to be more symbols of religion than before. More states are adopting the sharia. So do you believe Islam in Indonesia is becoming more conservative?

Yenny Wahid: I think there are two types of society: the more conservative side and the liberal side. But at the moment, the conservatives are gaining the upper hand. It's not that Islam is becoming more conservative. It's just that the radicals are gaining more power, and they're flexing their muscles and demanding so many things, including the overt attributes of Islam in all walks of life. Some are calling for the sharia. But sometimes it's just a cover for deeper issues that are troubling this country, for example the issue of corruption. And we see how in some areas, this gets attention away from the real issues. Sometimes this is just to attract the support of the hardcore Islamic groups, and again it's the politicians. I see this as very similar to the temperance movement that happened in the United States in the early 1900s, in which the religious groups pushed for the agenda by blackmailing political figures, and if they didn't do what the religious groups asked them to do, then they are labeled un-Christian. It's the same here. Politicians here are very afraid of being labeled un-Islamic. Being Islamic is such a virtue with the voters. If you are labeled un-Islamic then it can be very damaging to your credibility. So people will do all kinds of things just to get those credentials.

YI: There seems to be less tolerance (among Muslims), not just for other religions but also for different sects within Islam. What do you think happened?

Yenny Wahid: Again, I think the leaders come up with all these conservative messages. They cater to demands from the conservative groups, so the moderate voice gets locked up in the whole process. The moderate voice has become less popular in their approach than the more conservative groups. It's easier, for example, to blame others for misfortunes than to blame yourself, to find a solution. It's easier to blame poverty on Christians, for instance. We were supposed to have all the wealth, but the Christians took them away from us, the poor Muslims. This message gets repeated all the time, again and again, so that it becomes something that people believe in. It's a cheap message, a cheap card to use, but it's very effective.

YI: Given this creeping intolerance, people are very worried that pluralism in Indonesia may give rise to an Islamic state. Is that possible?

Yenny Wahid: Indonesia will not be an Islamic state as long as we are still here. This is our mission. We build our political mission around that. My grandfather was responsible for ensuring Indonesia did not become an Islamic state in the first place. He was the religious minister in the first cabinet after independence. That legacy we will continue as long as we are here.

YI: You are also secretary-general of the National Awakening Party (PKB), with links to the Nahdlatul Ulama (NU), the argest Muslim mass organization in Indonesia. In the history of independent Indonesia, Islamic parties don't usually do well in elections. Does the PKB have a winning strategy for the coming elections in 2009?

Yenny Wahid: Well, not exactly, because we have many cadres and even MPs who are non-Muslims. In predominantly Muslim areas, of course we have Muslim cadres, Muslim activists, but in areas that are predominantly Christian or non-Muslim areas like Bali, we have Hindus or Christian as our activists. And it's been proven to be quite effective. For example in Papua, we did not used to be strong before, but now we have one seat in parliament. And we have a 200 percent increase of people voting for us in East Nusa Tenggara, which is a predominantly Christian area, because we try to get the local players involved in our strategy. I'd like to go back to the last question before this one about Indonesia becoming more conservative. One of the reasons for that is because we see the clerics that are heading religious groups, for example, start to have political ambitions. And when that happens, there's no way they can be more idealistic in their approach. No way are they going to be pragmatic. There is this new political process which happened recently, which dictates that one day we might have direct elections, not pre-packaged any more. At the moment, candidates must be nominated by political parties. But we will have independent candidates nominating themselves one day. It's just a matter of waiting for a government regulation for that. When that happens, the first consequence is that religious groups will be tempted to name their own candidates. So religious groups will be busy getting involved in politics rather than taking care of the umah or the social aspects of their organizations.

YI: Are you saying that religious figures, clerics will start becoming involved in politics?

Yenny Wahid: They have already done that anyway. But because according to the law they can only be nominated by political parties, they still must be involved in political parties first before they get nominated. But later, when anyone can nominate themselves, can run as independent candidates, then these groups will nominate themselves.

YI: And they will use religion as their campaign platform?

Yenny Wahid: Of course, more and more.