CIA The World Factbook

YI: At the end of the day, however, isn't the answer to problems of extremism lie in how societies can provide social-economic justice?

Shireen Mazari: Partly that. I think definitely if you are able to make the average citizen have a greater stake in the system, if he feels that he can get justice, if he perceives that all legal venues to regress are not closed. If he feels he has access to bettering his life, obviously he or she is not going to join the extremists. So to that extent, yes, I think that's important. Equally important, I think, is to ensure that extremists are denied political space in one's environment. I think space denial is very important. And it's not just a question of economics or social facilities that you may provide to the mainstream. It is also a matter of seeing that your curricula does not encourage extremism, that you do not allow extremists to make inroads into your educational system, and so on. So, there are a number of factors.

YI: Wouldn't that be confining to the civil liberties?

Shireen Mazari: Not really, because if you have a law of the land which discourages violence, which does not allow private groups to have militant armies or to have groups that are armed, these are all laws that exist that need to be enforced. And if you enforce them, basically what you're saying is that like in any society, educational institutions are monitored and regulated. Nobody can just decide one fine day, 'ok, I'm setting up a school and want to train people in the martial arts. There's a way of doing things , you register yourself, you abide by the laws governing education in your society. So, I don't think it's restrictive of freedoms. I think these sort of regulatory bodies and regulations allow all citizens to have greater liberties, so that nobody is under threat from violent segments of society.

YI: President Musharraf has been active in initiating a move to seek a resolution on the Palestine issue, seen by many to be the root cause of problems of conflict between Muslims and the Western world. What are the prospects?

Shireen Mazari: I think it's not President Musharraf purely on his own. I think what he may be able to do is to shake the Muslim world out of its complacency, that it's for God's sake. That it's not just a Palestinian issue anymore because the Palestinian issue has become embedded in the Iraq conflict, in the US-Iran standoff. So what President Musharraf wants to do is tell these other Arab countries and other Muslim countries that you cannot remain indifferent. And I think that we're seeing it's not just President Musharraf, though he is being proactive, but there are other Muslim countries also - Saudi Arabia. You wouldn't imagine that Saudi Arabia would take a risk, because it is a risk for its image to try and bring the two factions of the Palestinians together. But they did, and they could have been rebuffed, but instead they were proven to be quite successful. So far, the two factions came to Mecca, they decided to make a compromise, and from what I'm reading in the press now, the Hamas government is going to resign and the National Unity government is going to be created. This was a risk that the Saudis took to play this sort of role, where they may not have succeeded and that would have been damaging to their image. I think it's time for all these Muslim countries, especially the non-Arab Muslim world, not just Pakistan. I think Indonesia, Malaysia should become more proactive within the Muslim world and the collectivity of the OIC.

YI: Not through the OIC?

Shireen Mazari: Through the OIC. Give it life and initiate. This has been an approach since the summit in Malaysia, when the Eminent Group of People were set up. You need a greater civil society context for the OIC. You need to have the non-Arab world become more important because they are the majority in the OIC, and they need to exert themselves more actively.

YI: How can non-Arab moderate Muslim countries like Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia demonstrate to the world that there is such a thing as moderate Islam?

Shireen Mazari: There are two ways. One is we need to challenge and stand our ground and stand when Islam is abused. On that I'm very clear. There should be no compromise by the Muslim world, whether it's a case of the Danish cartoons, or other issues. We need to stand our grand and say this is not acceptable to us, the abuse of Islam and its Prophet - Peace be upon him. But going beyond that, we need to create that liberalism and tolerance within our own societies, because only when we show the world that we as societies, are tolerant and truly liberal, and accommodating of others, then we will alter the misperceptions. And when we talk of the Muslim world at large, it's not just even Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia, from Suriname in Latin America right up to the Far East, we have Muslim states. So there is a lot of diversity of Islam and I think that diversity also needs to be publicized.

YI: What is your view of women in Islam, and women's role in the modern Islamic state?

Shireen Mazari: I think the position of women is very strong in Islam. I think Islam does give rights to women, not only that. It also gives hereditary rights which a lot of non-Islamic societies do not give. Even now, if you look at a lot of western societies, women suffer from different pay scales, hereditary rights in many societies go either to the first born or whatever. In Islam you don't have that. Women do have hereditary rights. Women are given - if not the same place - but certainly equality in many ways. I think also Islam, basically what you have to see is the spirit of Islam. And if you look at the Muslim world, where the societies are functioning in a truly Islamic spirit, women find no handicaps. If you look at Pakistan, women can go into any sphere. We now have even woman as fighter pilots who have been inducted in the Armed Forces. We have women in all walks of life. We have drawn the concept of different pace for different..., depending on gender is unknown in Pakistan. And I'm quite surprised when I find that in Europe that this is the common place - that women are paid less than men for a number of jobs. We don't have that gender distinction in terms of... This is not to say there is no discrimination but the discrimination against women is not due to Islam. It is on retrogressive social practices and it's not at the level of the state. It's at the level of families and societies. The state does not discriminate, it's within your social environment and family structures. That is where we have to fight the battles. It's not at the level of the state so much. The state should push more aggressively the laws it has. But at the end of the day, if your family discriminates, the girls cant rise beyond - they cant achieve their right to education and having a profession and so on. So, you have to fight at the micro level , the discrimination towards women.

     Discrimination is being done by society and individuals, not the state, that's where the battles have to be fought. If anyone wants to wear the burkah I have no problem with it. I would not wear it. Yes, it should be a matter of choice just as in the West, the Europeans must also allow that choice also to their Muslim citizens. So it should be a matter of choice in other societies as well. The state does not decree the form of dress. It should not. But the Europeans are being equally restrictive and the European states deny the choice of dress to Muslim women. I think this is unfortunate. But as long as the state does not decree restrictions on dress, then the battle has to be fought at the non-state level.

YI: (What happens when local governments issue bylaws according to Sharia)

Shireen Mazari: Most local bodies in most countries are elected. So people should elect those who they feel will not bring about restrictive laws, unless the majority decides it. Here, we have the whole debate, about: ok, you want democracy, should we accept the results of democracy? So when we're voting for parties, we should be very careful about what their long-term agenda are.

YI: On a personal note, how do you relax and regenerate yourself?

Shireen Mazari: I relax by spending time with my children and I do, by and large, manage to get quality time with them because I do not function - except in extraordinary circumstances, like conferences and so on -- my hours are finished when office hours end here. I do not do official duty after that. I enjoy playing music. I learn to play the keyboard with my children on weekends. Sports is another way of relaxing.

YI: What kind of music and sports do you like?

Shireen Mazari: Diverse kinds of music. I like everything from classical to our pop music, to of course, Western music, very much so. Sports I basically like to play tennis and swim. But I like watching a lot of sports, especially cricket.