CIA The World Factbook

YI: And is that working? Is industry coming around to that way of thinking?

Narain: In a scale of India, there are no absolutes. Everything is relative. But I think there's a willingness to engage. I give you another instance. We rate Indian industry in terms of its environmental impact. And one of the public ratings we did was on the pulp and paper sector. Now, the Indian pulp and paper sector has been saying to the government that the Southeast Asian model has been that you give large amounts of forest areas to industrial concessions. And that these are tree plans that industries have access to for its development. We have been arguing that India cannot afford the Southeast Asian model, that India must get its raw material from farmers and from tribals. So, the raw material for the pulp and paper sector must come out of employment which is created to its farming sectors. So we are looking at an industrial model in which you can have a pulp and paper sector but your raw materials come out of a mass of producers who's growing your raw materials, not a large captive plantation.
This has been a very difficult issue because obviously industry says to us, 'in Malaysia the land is cheap, we're importing cost on it,' but what has been very encouraging is that in the last 10 years the Indian pulp and paper industry has innovated. So there are many industries today which are actually sourcing hundred percent of their material from farmers. And here is a change that is happening. I think this is very fascinating that we can actually find new models of growth. And it's a growth which is deeper, which benefits a larger number of people and can actually provide employment for millions.

YI: You're known more as Miss Water Management. You have won awards for it, tell us more about your ideas on water management, which is a major problem everywhere and how you link it with 'improved human rights'?

Narain: I think the way to start is that water is a fundamental human rights. We have to understand it. We need water for our development. Without water there is no agriculture, so there is no livelihood. Without water there is no nutrition. Without water there is no health, because it's bad for your health. So, it's a very clear human need. Now, in a country like India, what we have argued is that the way that we have managed our water has been that we have essentially created large systems, more centralized systems, but those have benefited few people.
What we need is a system in which we can distribute water because we want to distribute wealth, and we want to have more inclusive growth. And for that we have really borrowed on India's traditions. India has had a remarkable, incredible traditions of managing its water, pre-colonial times before the British came in. Every region in India had its own unique system of managing water. It used to have its rains in the desert, for instance, if you go into the Rajasthan desert, you will find these systems even today where every house on its roof harvest its water and store it in the tank. Or they will use small catchments and build wells and use that catchment to harvest the water. Or in the Himalayas, they will melt the glacier and harvest it. So every region has a unique system and what we are arguing is that we need to learn from the wisdom of our people, we need to recreate this wisdom in modern water policy. And the only way we can do that is if we look at water as a community right, because we have to decentralize the governance of water as well. So, in a sense, what we have argued is that water is not about water. Water is about politics. And that this is really what India has to do.

YI: What about making water management a business, because I understand in some countries like Singapore, where they also have a water problem, this has become a lucrative business.

Narain: I have nothing against it. Water as a business is going to be very much a part of all the realities, in fact, it is part of reality. And so, while you're in India, you've been drinking bottled water. This is a very big business in India. Whether the rich pay a lot more today for bottled water than they pay for a liter of milk. So, it's already a business. But I would argue a little differently, that in India the issue is not about business, the issue is about access to all. Now when you are looking at access to all, you will find it's impossible for you to think about business providing water where there is no economic opportunity for it to do so. So what I would argue is that first, you must leave water for the public good and then you must think of water as an economic good. You need both, as a public good, the right of every Indian to have water, different forms of management so that you can make water a public good. But then, where the rich in India, where the business in India exists, you need water to be prized, because if you don't prize water then at the end of the day, water becomes something in which the rich use water but they don't pay for it. And it's the poor who pay for it. So, I think business has a very important role to play, but it has a role to play where there is a business of water, not where the business of water is about providing water to all.

YI: Let's leave India and go the world. What is the shape of our world today? Do you agree like many people that global warming is a serious threat? Is that our biggest problem?

Narain: I think global warming is an international shame. I think the fact is global warming will happen in the world, it's going to affect the poorest of the poor and that it's rich in the world, whether it's the rich in New York or the rich in Delhi who are responsible for it, and that we as the world have never been able to have the guts and the spunk to deal with this issue. It's a shame. It's criminal. Let's be very clear about this. Global warming today is more and more a reality. And yet, we have done so little to deal with it, because it will require us to re-work the paradigm of our own truth. completely disagree with the communists who say that you can deal with global warming in a win-win situation, that is everyone will win. But it's a fact that large numbers of people who are going to lose and I think it's very important for us to demand from our leaders, whether it's the Indian prime minister or the president of the United States, demand that we defy your leadership here. This is too serious an issue. It's going be quite a cooperation of a level we have never seen in the world, but it could also lead to a devastation that we have never seen before. It is too serious to be taken so lightly. And we as citizens of the world have to take this so much more seriously. I'm sorry but I'm very passionate about this and I get angry about this.

YI: You don't think anything concrete is being done?

Narain: I have watched the issue of global warming for the past 15 years. I have been there at almost every COP, (Conference of Party) and absolutely give up in disgust. I have seen just words and words and words. I have never seen seriousness of intent. For the first 10 years all we have argued is whether global warming is a reality or not. And now we're beginning to argue, it is a reality, but we will not do anything until China and India do something about it.
The fact of the matter is that India and China also need the right to grow. And it is the responsibility of the rich countries to bring down their emissions so that we can grow. And the fact is that we have to share global space. This is one issue in which the world is most challenged to say that the market does not work because if you follow the market then it is a path down to hell, as far as global warming is concerned.

YI: That is scary.

Narain: It is scary. You should be scared. Please understand, we are often known as doomsayers, 'oh you environmentalists, you are always telling us everything is going to be destroyed' and nobody took global warming seriously, and it's affecting us today. They're talking about the glacier melting at a speed that scientists themselves never thought of, they're talking about monsoons, the lifeline of India changing. Are we prepared for all this? This is something that we should be serious about. Most importantly it's important for us to rethink what we mean by development.

Ms. Narain, I think that with your passion and with your intensity I think that people will listen to you. Thank you again for your time.