CIA The World Factbook

YI: But aren't we seeing a change, a kind of a renaissance in Asia right now?

Mahbubani: I think we're seeing the beginnings of a renaissance, but I think Asian countries have so far done the easy things. The first phase of economic development is often the easiest. But as you move up the development ladder, and as you have to compete with the developed societies, whether it's in America or Europe, you have to show the same capacity for critical thinking that has enabled these societies to propel forward. In many Asian societies today, there are so many taboo subjects. You can't discuss things openly and critically. And that I see is the weakness of Asian society. I hope again, that in my book 'Can Asians Think?' I am forcing Asians to ask hard questions and think critically. I don't think they've arrived at all.

YI: Is this cultural? What must we do to bring about this kind of change?

Mahbubani: We don't have to reinvent the wheel. Fortunately for us, other societies have succeeded already and we can learn their best practices. This is happening already in China and India, for example, learning to apply what I call western wisdom through market economics, for example, which are being implemented. Emphasis on education, emphasis on the rule of law, all this are being gradually implemented, but they need to be implemented more systematically.
      The more we can learn from the developed societies and what to do right, the faster we can progress. Take the rule of law, I see that as being fundamental: it's important that there no segment of society, especially the rich and powerful elite (which are immune from the rule of law). Look at Indonesia, for example, there was a time when President Suharto and his family were immune from any kind of legal process. That's not healthy for any society. Even the highest person in America -- the president -- is not immune from the rule of law, in the same way leaders of Asian countries should also not be immune from the rule of law. That should be implemented to ensure societies move forward.

YI: I bring up again the question of culture, because many people blame it on the remnants of long-standing feudalism that exist in many countries. How can we change this? Through education, perhaps?

Mahbubani: I'm glad you brought the word feudalism, because I think that's the critical word. What you have in Asian societies are the external trappings of modernity. You have a parliament, courts, but the culture is very feudal. One of the saddest countries in Southeast Asia is the Philippines. On the surface, the Philippines is openly democratic, it has the rule of law, but in terms of its culture, it's still very feudal, with a few families, in many ways, still controlling the wealth of the country. And the people at the very bottom have no avenue to grow and develop except to go overseas and work as foreign workers. Whereas, once you de-feudalize societies like what India is doing, for example, I think it's quite amazing to see the untouchable castes in India like this man, Mahendra Yadav become the chief economist of the Reserve Bank of India. All his ancestors, the only thing they could do was sweep the streets. They were not even allowed to touch or shake hands with people of other classes. India's capacity to get rid of the feudal mindset, is liberating enormous reserves of energy within the Indian body politic, and also ensures that the brain power that India has in the lower caste, which was lost, is now being used to develop the country. So, in the same way, Southeast Asian societies must get rid of this feudal mentality and see the lower classes not as liabilities to their societies but as assets. Because these are reserve pools of brain power that have not been used by societies for their development.

YI: Is it possible to attain an equilibrium between the noble values of the past with modernity?

Mahbubani: The answer to that question is that you can preserve noble values of the past, but they should be subject to re-evaluation all the time. Take for example, family values. It is a great strength of Asian societies that they pay such a high premium on taking care of their families. And that explains why, for example, many Asian societies are able to provide --in a sense --an inherent social safety net. That if the state doesn't provide this safety net, the family structure will. So, in that sense, it's positive. But there's always two sides to the same coin. The other side of the coin of family values is the danger of nepotism. The biggest danger that Asian societies face is that whenever someone succeeds and develops, there's a strong possibility he will bring an uncle, a cousin, a brother-in-law, a father-in-law to positions of power. Now, if they get these positions on the basis of merit, there wouldn't be a problem. But if they get on because of connections, that's a different problem. That's why I think that the fundamental principle that all Asian societies should implement is the principle of meritocracy. Meritocracy ensures that the person selected for the job is the best possible person, and not because he's your uncle or cousin. That means you can develop.

YI: And not very many countries are in that stage yet.

Mahbubani: Well, it is actually surprising, none more surprising than the example of China. China is still run by the Chinese communist party. And the old communist party impulse was always to keep the power within the party and allow only the most senior people to exercise control. That's why the Soviet communist party used to have leaders whose average age was 75 or 80 years old, and they would still be in office by the time they died. But China today, has one of the youngest set of leaders of any country in the world. And China believes that unless you have a process of renewal of the leadership, China will go downhill again. I always say that the Chinese communist party didn't have to reinvent the wheel except to look at successful organizations in the West. I always compare the Chinese method of selecting its leaders to Harvard University. At Harvard, before they appoint a professor to any post, they first try to find out who's the number one person in the field, the number two and number three persons. You have to become one of those three numbers before you can become a professor in Harvard University. If no one is in that league they won't fill that position. In China you notice this when they select mayors, vice-mayors. They try to pick the best possible candidate. And if you can inject the talent into leadership positions that's how you renew societies.

YI: In Asia, there are countries like China and India growing rapidly, countries already developed like Japan, but there are also these different levels of development. Will they be left behind?

Mahbubani: Some countries like North Korea will clearly lag behind. I also worry for Myanmar. But the good news for Asian societies is that enough Asian societies have succeeded. Japan has succeeded, so has Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore - the four tigers. Now China and India are succeeding. So, there's enough momentum and what we, especially at the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy, are seeing is students coming from all over Asia. Only 20 percent of our students come from Singapore. What we will encourage our students is to just study what the successful countries are doing. Why don't you just copy your neighbor? This is what China did in the early years. China asked itself the obvious question: why are the Chinese in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore doing so well, when the Chinese in China are so poor? Okay, they implemented free market economics, we'll have free market economics in China too. As you know, the Chinese have bit the bullet and they are prepared to get rid of state monopolies, get rid of inefficient state enterprises. That's what societies need to do. In 1950, the Philippines was seen to have a great future and China was seen to have no future. Today, China is taking off, and the Philippines is still lagging behind. So I would say, learn from the successful societies and implement them as fast as you can.

YI: ASEAN is talking about establishing an East Asian community. Will that work to level or at least bring a semblance of balance between the countries?

Mahbubani: I'm actually very bullish about the East Asian Community. I see that there is a recognition among more and more Asian countries that the only way Asia can develop is if we grow peacefully with each other.

      I'm very optimistic for the prospects of an East Asian community because, while Asian societies have not perfectly implemented many of the best practices of the West, we realize in some ways, that the west has reached the greatest peak of human civilization, not just achieved zero wars between any two western states. They have reached zero prospect of war. And it's amazing, the Europeans have been fighting each other for centuries, and today they have zero prospect of war. France and Germany, France and the United Kingdom, America and Canada, Australia and New Zealand. This explains why these societies develop and can grow and succeed. In the same way, the Asian societies have gone one step towards that direction, by achieving zero war. So today we have no wars, no prospects of war even among the major Asian states. That's a remarkable achievement. And I don't think this happened by accident. I think it's the result of a conscious decision on the part of Asian leaders. If they go to war with each other, they will destroy their chances, they'll waste another century in trying to catch up with the West. So, I think the fundamental impulse behind the East Asia community is to create a cooperative climate. So, even though the economic cooperation may not grow so fast --Asians too long to implement free trade agreements--because there is a lot of domestic interest that prevent them from establishing free trade agreements, but at least on the political front, military front, the growing stability is a huge asset. I see great prospects ahead for the East Asian community.

YI: Let's hope you're right. There's a lot of pessimism about it but there's also a lot of optimism.

Mahbubani: So far my optimism has been proven correct. By the way, I can tell you that at the end of the Cold War, there were so many western writers that used to say, well, you'll see in the 1990s the Balkans of Asia - which is Southeast Asia --which has a far greater diversity of race, language, religion and culture than the Balkans in Europe. But throughout the 1990s, there was no war in the Balkans of Asia, but wars in the Balkans of Europe. This shows that actually the impulse towards peace is a very profound and real one.